I dont know if this is a dumb question but what scales does satch use?

I think mostly pentatonic scales...

ok thnx

He uses lots of pentatonic licks, but ofcourse a many other scales too... not just one particular scale

my 2 cents worth:

I think that Satch uses a lot of pentatonic scales in his music, just like any other rock guitarist, but one of the things that makes him stand out (at least to me) is his use of more 'uncommon' scales.

Some of these scales include:

- the 7 fundamental modes (also known as major modes) i.e. Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian. To be honest, I've never heard him use Locrian but he might have!
- Harmonic minor scale, and its 5th mode, Phrygian Dominant. These 2 are pretty useful to know and fun to play with. "Surfing with the Alien" features the Phrygian Dominant in the solos.
- Symmetrical scale (also known as half-whole diminished scale). I think he uses this from time to time, esp in "The Power Cosmic".
- Wholetone scale, used in "Trundrumbalind".
- Lydian Dominant, a favourite of Joe's, but I'm not sure which songs he's used it in.

I hope this is helpful! Satch actually uses and knows a lot more scales than that, but I feel that knowing the ones I listed above will get you through a lot and help you to develop. It takes a lot of patience and a long time to get a good grasp on these scales, so don't rush!
-

When you have the time , could u explain some basic scale theory? Everyday i see all these words , "Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian." but have no idea what they are besides knowing they are scales.

wow thnx, but just like future im not shure what Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian exactly means

You should dload "Modes no more Mystery" from Frank Gambale, in that tapes he explains everything with examples etc. Good luck!

cool! Thanks for the tip :) but eh, where can I find it?

yes...all those scale names use to scare me because im mainly an ear player.....but i know a secret...and here it is

take any standard scale that you know, (blues scale, minor scale)say your in A.....so A is your root note

play the same scale but make E your root note, or make D your root, or even G should work well.....experiment with this......I cant call em by name but this process has you in the "weird name scale mode"

So i take the root name and so the half step thingy?

i dont know what you mean....my explanation is the clearest i can write...if you know a scale and you understand the root note....you should be on your way

I know Joe alternates between F Phrygian and the F natural minor scale in the chorus of "Is There Love In Space?" (another one of my favorite Satch tunes).

So basically one is playing in the A natural minor scale over the first chord, which is F major 7th, and in F minor over the second chord, which is F minor 11th. This is a fun 'scale change-up' to play. A B C D E F G A and then to F G Ab Bb C D Eb F.

Try it along with the actual song! It's cool. Plus, it makes figuring out the totally stellar outro solo all that much easier.

Adam

Doenload with KaZaa or try eMule, something like that. Otherwise if you can host'em, I'll send it to you. (I don't have all parts, though. I deleted a couple because would cost me to much space on my harddisc :merc: )

Hi

regarding what Joe plays chemicalmagical says it all.

About modes, Here's a simple lesson.

Take the C major scale. The notes are C D E F G A B.

And the chord triads are C Dm Em F G Am Bdim(rarely used)

Now when you write a simple song on C major you use these chords to create you harmony, the music progression that is. What you do though is you punctuate on the C chord, which means when you here the song you recognize it's the main chord, it's the chord the song mostly rests. An example would be ||:C |F |G |C :||.
If you solo over this you would definately be playing C major scale.

Now let's say we invert things a little. We use the same chords from the same scale but in this progression ||:G |F |C |G:||.
As you can see this progression emphasizes on G. Someone could say"So it's G major progression". But it isnt cause only C major scale has these chords. So, G became the important chord. If you play a solo improvisation on this progression you would be using the C major notes C D E F G A B but G would be the key note.
So you can say a new scale is created: G A B C D E F. Same notes with another order.

This makes this scale to be named G mixolydian, which is a mode of the C major scale. So what we did is took the C major notes and started at the 5th note.
In the same sence here are all the C major modes:

C Ionian : C D E F G A B (the major scale as it's own mode)
D Dorian : D E F G A B C
E Phrygian : E F G A B C D
F Lydian : F G A B C D E
G mixolydian : G A B C D E F
A Aeolian : A B C D E F G (yes! the natural minor scale)
B Locrian : B C D E F G A

So as you see it's not only important to know which notes are in every mode, but how all this is used to create a song.

The names of the modes are Greek ancient tribes. I hope this isnt all Greek to you :)

Here's an exersice: Give me the notes of:

A Dorian
F# Phrygian
B mixolydian

Ibanick

lol...boy that looks like loads of fun!
greek?...no..Plutonian?...maybe

wow ibanick, great post! You really know you music theory! :clap:

I'm going to print Ibanick's post out and study it. :lol:

Thanks. This is just the kind of thing I need to study up on.

Adam

Hi Guys

if you are interested I could post some essential lessons to get you going. Just tell me if you do, also mention your knowledge level and maybe we can get a topic going especially for this.

Ibanick

wow that's a great offer man! More volunteers to join?

Sorry! I didn't mean to confuse anyone... and since I have no idea of anyone's knowledge of music theory, I simple answered the question and listed the scales that are common in Satch's music.

Ibanick did a great job of explaining the scales and modes. I should emphasize that it is very important for your ear to 'hear' the differences between these modes e.g. the differences between D Dorian (D E F G A B C) and A Aeolian (A B C D E F G). Even though they contain the same notes, they are two different musical entities with two different sounds. As an exercise, play these two scales in ascending and descending order and try to figure out why they sound different. Dorian and Aeolian are actually pretty similar, and there's only one scale degree (note) that sounds different. Try this once you are more familiar with what the modes are and with playing them.

Also, Satch-Fu, I don't mean to sound like a smartass, but I think you might be mistaken in the scales used in "is there love in space?" Over Fmaj7, I believe Satch is simply playing F major. F Phrygian might sound 'wrong' since it contains a minor 3rd and would clash over a major chord. Also, playing the notes from A natural minor (also known as Aeolian) over Fmaj7 would produce a F Lydian tonality and not F Phrygian. One more thing is that I'm quite sure that Satch uses F Dorian and not F natural minor over the Fm11 chord. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm saying this in the interest of discussion, so please don't take it the wrong way. These days, it seems that people on forums always try to start a fight...

:beer3: wow guys, this is getting an interesting topic

:wave: Cool! :wave:

This is great stuff...hopefully i can understand more after i learn my chord theory.

ok, im gonna practise my modes. i think i wont be seen the next upcoming months. :D

actually, music theory is pretty straightforward and logical, for the most part. It's really no mystery at all. As long as you have patience and the right information with you, you will develop a thorough understanding in no time!

ibanick... i chose to accept your challenge....

A Dorian - A B C D E F# G
F# Phrygian - F# G A B C# D E F#
B mixolydian - B C# D# E F# G# A B

When getting your ears used to modes I took the approach Joe did - play them all over the same root. Write out the modes of, say E or A (or B if you have a seven string!), and then keep plucking the open string as your root, and play on the other five (or six!) strings in the mode of your choice.

You should start to hear each mode's own personality.

To make it even better (IMHO) play on only one string... then you're not focusing your playing on patterns, the CAGED system you learned, whatever - you're actually focusing on the task at hand, which is learning each mode's sound. they're so different I like to ue the word personality for sound.

I have tons more tips and stuff if anyone's interested, and I'm sure IbaNick does too.

Just shout.

:)

Dave

SHOUT!

Cool tips :)
I'm got actually stuck with the pentatonic shit and the corresponding chords. My teacher taught me to think in chords, example: take a regular A minor chord in the 5th position, you've got two roots: the one on the E string and the one on the D string (your pinky when holding the Am chord). You can start the Am scale now from the A on the E string, and from the A on the D string. If you learn scales this way, you also learn the accompanying chrods. What do you think of this approach?

Phrydom-Dave

Knowing you from Satch.com I was sure you would get the scales right.

Eric

This is a very correct approach to coordinate scales and chords. It works as well for diatonic scales and it really helps your solo improvisation going. If you practice this a lot soon you will find how easy it is to play a melodic solo when improvising.

Ibanick

Okay lemme get soming straight satch bairly uses pentatonic scales he will be using the notes form these only because he is using different modes, do any of you honestly think that he makes likes up in pentatonic! COMON! my grandad plays pentatonic! lol

he doesnt use pentatonic that much..

Actualy, Satch uses pentatonic scales a ton. It's just, for HJoe, it's a choice, not a necessity - he knows a ton of other scales. Each scale has a given "sound" to it, and for some applications, the pentatonic is the "right" one.

A great example is his main solo in "Devil's Slide." I've never seen a tab, and I have neither the CD nor my guitar with me, but what my ears are telling me is Satch is "trading" bars of a fairly close-voiced scale (probably some diatonic minor scale) with a very legato, slightly exotic touch with bars of pentatonic licks, lots of bluesy bends. This gives an on/off dynamic contrast to the solo, where his phrasing gets very tight (lots of step and half-step interval changes) before "widening" back out on the subsequent bar (pentatonic - whole steps, minor thirds, occasionally 4ths and 5ths).

It's a pretty cool way to add a sense of movement to a solo, imo.

Another guy to check out for pentatonic playing- Rusty Cooley. When you're playing as fast as he does, pentatonic scales (with their wider intervallic structure, five notes per octave as opposed to seven) retain melodic clarity at speed (and we're talking speed - I refuse to admit Rusty's human. Otherwise I'd have to quit, lol) - diatonic scales sound more "blurred" because the notes are closer together. Try them three-notes-per-string (or four or five, if you've got Rusty's reach, lol) for some fun.


And then you get into stuff like superimposed pentatonics, playing a pentatonic scale based on a chord tone other than the root to suggest upper extensions - pentatonics rock. Just because they're the first scale everyone learns doesn't make them any less of a "valid" scale choice.

Eric, I've got a theory minor I've just been sitting on these last couple years - I'll start posting stuff here once I get more time. Swear to god. ;)

-Drew