:huh:


I don't understand scales or modes. I don't understand why people say the modes sound different from each other.


Say I'm playing in G Major. I can play B Phrygian, or C Lydian. Both of these modes contain the exact same notes, so why should they sound different when I'm improvising? They both have the same set of notes, albeit the note that each mode starts on is different. So why, if they are virtually identical, should they sound different? How can you write a song in, for example, C Lydian when those notes are in every other mode of the G Major scale?



So, my big question is this...if I'm playing in a certain key - lets stick to G Major for now - then why do I need to use scales at all? Why can't I just learn all the notes all along the fretboard, and know which notes are part of the G Major scale/key and just play them?


I don't understand the benefit of using scales and modes, they seem (to me) to force a player into a pattern of notes, rather than actually learning which notes are which and playing them accordingly. I understand that some scales may throw in notes that are, strictly speaking, out of key, but still sound right, but this comes back to learning the notes that work in a particular key and learning where they are rather than learning scale patterns.




Knowing me, I've probably skipped out a huge chunk of music theory, and my rather basic understanding of music theory is probably wrong, or at least slightly skewed, so I hope that someone out there can first understand what I'm on about, and second, help me to understand this stuff.



Thanks
tTz
:blink:

Basically you are right, but...

of course they are overlapping each other as we have discussed this into other threads as well. But that's not the point. When I say that the modes sound different I mean that B Phrygian sounds different from B Dorian which sounds different from B Yonian. I do not mean that E Phrygian sounds different than C Yonian (as they are the same). The idea is that they sound different from the same root note. What lies behind the overlapping is actually the freedom to go all around the fretboard and not stick just to e.g. 12 - 15 fret on the 6 strings. When you play in C Yonian and go to D Dorian you are still playing major C. This is just to make it easier for you to go around the fretboard.

Also some licks would sound different when you play them along the neck although you are still playing the same mode just because on the different place you are playing different part of the set of notes that are on the scale (I hope someone gets what I mean). Just to make it easy so that you do not have to stop and think about it. B)

If you do that and start playing actually you would be playing the scales themselves. It doesn't matter if you have done it this way or not but you are doing the same thing. If I take G Major for example and learn all the notes and start playing for example B C D E F# G
A --------7-9-10
E -7-8-10

You are playing B phrygian. And yes you are playing the A Dorian. But instead of learning all the notes for example in G# minor and start playing you could just learn the Phrygian pattern and apply it on C

1. Yes they contain the exact same notes, but the tonic (root) note is what makes them sound different. Try playing the notes in G# Minor (4h position) over a low E string drone (E Lydian). Then try playing as you normally would in G# Minor in your kind of 'box'* at 4th position (G# minor). Actually you may want to play some pentatonics based on the 4th position, you may be more used to hearing something like that. Two completely distinct feelings aren't they? And yet it's the same notes...the note in which your ear hears as being the resolution point is what makes them sound different.

2. You can do that. However, if you're going to play in a mode that is relative to G Major (same notes), you have a whole new set of resolutions to take advantage of. This is where it can get tricky. You must use the same notes in a different way. As a basic example, in most forms of music you would have to pay attention to playing around the V chord and resolving to the I chord in your new key.

Hope that all makes sense, I'm not the best teacher.

* G# minor box

Yep, they contain the same notes, but they're not the same as each other!

Let's analyse your G major scale - let's see how many semitones away from the root each note is:

1 G = 0
2 A = 2
3 B = 4
4 C = 5
5 D = 7
6 E = 9
7 F# = 11
1 G = 12

Now do the same for C Lydian, seeing how far each note is from the root:

1 C = 0
2 D = 2
3 E = 4
4 F# = 6
5 G = 7
6 A = 9
7 B = 11
1 C = 12

see the difference? The 4th note is different when comparing major to lydian. In the lydian mode the 4th degree is a semitone sharpoer than the 4th degree in the major scale.

Sure, the lydian mode in its construction is only one note different from the major scale, but it's a huge difference! It's the reason why FIABD doesn't sound or feel like the Happy Birthday song! ;)

I'm moving on to modes in the Theory Thread soon... you might want to check it out for your scale questions too... and remember to shout in the Discussion thread with your questions! :)

Hope this helps! It''s things like this that are a lot easier face to face or over the phone! :lol:

Thanks everyone. I must confess, PhryDom's explanation made more sense than the other two, simply because I don't know enough theory to understand the explanations! :lol:


One other question...I accept that the modes are different (I'm going to sit down and analyse them one at a time later on, I think) but why should it sound different if I'm playing the same notes? If I'm not playing the scale notes in the same order, and I'm weaving up and down the neck, shifting between mode-patterns, I don't see why there should be distinct differences between the sound in different parts of the neck, considering that I'm not sticking to a pattern, and simply playing the notes of the scale rather than the modes as individuals...er, if that makes sense. :huh:

But why, as I said, should the root note of the scale change when I'm not consciously playing a scale (or a mode...I tend to refer to them as scales in their own right, not sure if that's musically correct or not)? Who decides what notes on the fretboard are part of a scale with a different root note from another one? For example, 8th fret on the low E string (a C) could be either the second note in B Phrygian, or the first note of C Lydian (can you tell I like those two positions?), and so on for any other number of scales, but if I play that note alone, then how come that note fits into two modes/scales which sound, allegedly, entirely different from each other?




This would probably be a lot easier if I had a guitar in front of me, but I'm taking (another!) tendonitis-enforced break from playing, and I'm trying to use the time to learn some proper theory, rather than widdling aimlessly like I would normally do. I'll check the theory thread too, there seems to have been a post or two more in there that I haven't seen (haven't been visiting this forum much). Apologies if I'm slow on the uptake with this stuff, it's a little confusing without an instrument to test it on. :unsure:



Seriously though, thanks for the help so far guys! :D

it's all about, as in my previous post, how those "same" notes relate to the chord / bassline you're playing over... simple example, not too much theory (;) )...

play (gently! if your hands are taking a break!) this voicing of A minor:

(code = string + fret)

E5
B5
G5

now play the open A string underneath... nice and simple A minor chord

now play D3 underneath instead... that's F major 7... you changed how the top notes sound by changing the bass note... the top notes stayed the same(like your point about playing the same notes), but now they sound different because you changed the bass note...

modes are exactly like this - play those same seven notes from G major over a G and you've got G major... play them over a C and you're playing C lydian - it's the relation to the bass note / accompanying chord(s) that dictates which mode you're in...

I'd love to elaborate but it's shower-then-work time!!!!

Ah okay, great question. Usually what constitutes the root (or first) note and therefore "grounds" your group of notes to being a specific scale (or mode, either is correct essentially) is that songs usually START on the root chord. However, this is not always the case, and the whole matter is actually not set in stone. It's all in how your ear hears the resolution point.

This is why I told you, as an exercise, to play a G# minor shape on top of a low droning E string. Because the E would be ringing out, and be the lowest note, it gives you ear a great "anchor" to hear the G# minor shape starting on the E note, which is of course E Lydian (E F# G# A# B C# D#)

Right, I understand now that the modes are different from each other, due to the notes having differen intervals from the root note of the mode...I explained that badly, but I know what I mean.


Say I'm playing over something in G Major again (I know the positions for that key better than for others) and I learn all the notes all along the fretboard...I'm not consciously playing modes, so what determines what mode I'm playing in? The backing chords? So, really, it doesn't matter where I play a mode anywhere on the neck, it's the root note that determines what I'm doing, whether I'm conscious of that or not?


Erm...hope you can understand what I'm asking there. Even I find my question confusing. :huh:

regarding this, and your original question(s) regarding the same notes, then yes, you're playing modally whether you're conscious of it or not. where on the neck you play is immaterial - it's the notes you play and (as you say) what you're playing over that makes it modal.

but to really get into how to use modes there's more work to do (sorry!)...

i'm hesitant to expand here, as i'd like to go back a few steps and continue the theory thread, but for now try this...

get a hold of the Tone / Semitone formulae for all the modes and then write out each major scale mode of E - ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian and locrian... then (as i think it was research triangle mentioned) keep hitting your bottom e string, letting it ring, and then improvise with each mode over that same root note (a bass player, other guitarist, sequencer, etc can help here too!)... gradually you'll find each mode's character / feel / mood / colour / whatever... this truly is the way to use modes - to learn what's different and unique about each one and to use it whenever you want / feel... make sense?

there are videos of joe doing exactly this, linked elsewhere on this site... if you can't find them head on over to Sam's great site foreverjoe.com, he has them there too

Great, thanks. I think things are finally starting to become a little clearer. I really appreciate that you guys put up with my annoying questions over and over again, you've been a big help. I'll keep an eye on that theory thread. ;)



Thanks a lot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrAA-MPDJM0

I wish I understood half as much of this as you guys. Anticipating that next theory lesson Phrydom! :hunger:

can't check the vid right now (too early in the morning!) but thanks for the link jerry!

i'll get on the theory thread soon! :)

Funnily enough, I saw that vid yesterday. That's not strictly what we're talking about here though, is it? I think that's pitch axis theory.

ohhh, now you've gone and done it!! :lol:

yes, what i described with the open E string (or a bassist or a computer or another guitar player) and then playing the different modes of E over it is the startings of pitch axis theory! ;)

...just shoot me, go ahead, shoot me. It would be a lot more painless than trying to understand this stuff...:huh:




:edit:


Right, so when you were talking about hitting the open E and playing the modes over the top of that, you meant me to play E Ionian, E Dorian, E Phrygian, etc etc? I saw that in a magazine once (a Satriani lesson, no less...though they used all the modes of C rather than E), and I plain didn't understand why they bothered saying that the modes would sound different...of course they would, they're in different keys!

My guitars are still hidden away, so I can't practice anything yet. I could get the bass out if I urgently had to, it's the only one that's not in a ludicrously inaccessible position. ;)

you're right, they sound different because they each contain a different set of seven notes ( = they're all different keys). they all have something in common, though - that E note. that's the central theme of pitch axis - the keys revolving around a constant pitch (or tonal centre).

there's more to modes, too, i just haven't typed it out for the theory thread :lol: stuff like how to use an unexpected mode for a solo, how to actually compose with modes, modeal substitutions, and more!

Right... :merc:





I think I'm understanding now, more or less. I'm hoping to start getting some guitar lessons in a month or two, once I'm back playing, so any lingering doubts can probably be cleared up there, guitar-in-hand. Thanks everyone. :D

Right I have been keeping an eye on this and thought I would add my 2 cents.

When soloing in a mode, while you are essentially playing the same notes you need to be know that your intervals are different. When playing rock music you will mainly resolve to the i,iii,v of the chord you are playing over.

i.e.
Playing in G, you will be resolving to G,B, or D.

However if you are playing in C Lydian, you will be looking to resolve to C,E, or G. So while you are playing the same notes as G Major you are thinking C Lydian.

I hope this helps and adds to what the other guys have said. I am not very good at explaining and don't have the time to write it up properly. Satch talks about this on various videos and interviews that can be found on this site.

Maybe PhryDom can correct anything I have missed.

A program I got off the net I found quite useful called guitarscalesmethod which takes you through patterns etc and how to play over chords and very good playalong feature. It is not one of those gimmicky play in 7days jobs. I think there is also a trial version that you can check out and see if it a help to you.

So what you're saying is that playing a standard G Major scale, G, B and D would be the 'root' notes of the scale (not the correct term, but I know what I mean...), whereas if I'm playing in C Lydian, I'll keep returning to C, E or G instead, so that's where the different sound comes from (I'm glad I read PhryDom's theory thread so I understand what those notes are)?


I'm not very good at explaining either, but I think I understand you, whether what I typed above was what you meant or not. :P

by 'root' notes i think you're referring to the triads? in that case you're right, if you're soloing over a G major chord you're soloing over the notes G B and D played together because they are what makes up a G major chord. Similarly C E and G make up a C major chord.

As Neil says, it's probably a good bet that you might make some kind of leaning towards those notes, by ending phrases on one of them, holding one of them longer than other notes, or whatever, but this particular study of intervals isn't really part of the discussion on modes (sorry Neil!).

For example, I love to use the 9 when improvising & composing, and the 4th too... sticking with the triad notes can be (often is) predictable, and for me that's something I never want to be ;)

And when playing Lydian if you don't point out in your playing that the 4th is sharpened you might as well not be playing it ;)

Playing modally (for me) is all about emphasising the difference between the mode you're in and the major scale of the same root. This is the fundamental basis of my approach to modes, and is what I'm going to work on for the theory thread this week. I fully hope to get it online before I go camping on Monday.

What to play over what is more of an improvisational subject. That'll come after you know what the modes are, how they're constructed, and how why and when to use them.

Hope that doesn't sound too vague! I've only had half a cup of coffee so far :lol:


EDIT: Lack of caffeine induced spelling errors :lol:

Heh, that doesn't sound too vague, it's helpful as always! Looking forward to reading the next instalment of the theory thread (don't you just hate it when people say that?). :P

no, i don't hate it, it gives me the arse-kicking i need :lol:

i did actually start writing a book on my approach to modes, i really hope i can find the work i did (it was 5000 miles and probably six computers ago) to save me some time ;)

thanks for your praise as always! :)

I agree with everything you say PhryDom.

Definately playing modally requires the emphasis of the different modes. But doesn't ending a phrase on a 9th make it sound more jazzy? In this interview Satch talks about this:

Guitar Player Satch interview.

But, at the end of the day, it is down to what you want the track to sound like. :D

The only thing I am puzzled by, is surely doesn't a discussion on modes automatically become a discussion on intervals? I used to think the same way about the modes that they were just the same scales until I realised about the importance of the intervalic structure.

Anyway, I hope this has helped someone a bit, and thanks for elaborating on what I was saying to make it clearer. I don't envy you trying to write the theory thread, getting down what is in your head is really difficult. :D

I personally wouldn't use the word jazzy. Perhaps that note did sound jazzy in that solo's context, who knows except Joe & the crew? ;)

Here's an example... one of my tracks (from the first T21J CD) has an Fmaj7 as one of the chords. Rather than write a melody that (in my ears) clings too tightly on the triad notes (F A and C - as a mater of fact there isn't even a C note in my chord, but that's another story :lol:) I decided (as I try to encourage with modal playing) to emphasise what's unique about that chord when comparing it to a power chord, or a standard major triad. For me it was the major 7. So the first note of the melody is an E. Sure, it sounds a little "weird" at first, but because it's a chord tone it still works.

Similarly if you're playing over, say, a m6 chord you might want to emphasise the 6th degree... I think I was (indirectly, on reflection, so apologies!) trying to say that sticking to the triad tones is (again, to my ears) boring and predictable. Play some nicer chords (a maj7 or a m7 can still be heavy if you need it to be! ;) ) and open up your available tone colours ;) Make sense?

In that sense, yes, you're absolutely right. But to talk about emphasising the triad tones (when we're talking theory and not "instruction") might lead people up the wrong path.

I try not to tell anybody what to play and when, just what's available, and why.

It certainly is! :lol:

Funnily enough, I almost suggested you write a book on theory. I was sure I'd typed the post, but I can't find it, so I obviously didn't post it. :huh:

In fact, along the same lines, what about taking all the material you're putting into the theory thread and archiving it in a standalone website? I'm sure there are plenty of people here who would be willing to lend a hand. Hell, even if you didn't have the time to do something like that, we could trawl through every post in the theory board (every helpful post, not just PhryDom's :P) and archive them all. :lol:







One last question, now that I've had time to think things over (I always find myself coming up with questions just before I go to sleep, for some reason...hope it's not the theory that's putting me to sleep, come to think of it). Is it really necessary to play the different 'patterns' for the modes (see here for an illustration of what I mean - http://www.guitarknowledgenet.com/LearningRoot/scales1.html), or could I just be careful to use the root notes/triad notes/strange-sounding-yet-complimentary notes of the mode?

For example (going back to good ol' G Major modes) if I'm playing C Lydian, can I just weave up and down the neck rather than playing the scale box/pattern, and still call it Lydian as long as I emphasise the notes that cause Lydian to sound different from the other modes?

archiving the theory posts is a great idea! :)

and i hope you get this before you go to sleep, this is something i feel very strongly about...

box patterns and shapes are a very very bad thing!

as long as you're using the notes, you're just fine :)

Great, thanks for clearing that up. And I want to point out, I'm not going to sleep just now (it's 4:30 in the afternoon where I am, almost dinnertime!), it was last night that I thought up the question. I'll probably think up another one tonight. :P




Oh, wait, here's one...if all you have to do is learn the notes, and phrase them correctly...what's the point in box patterns anyway? If they didn't exist, I never would have been so confused. ;)

i think some books and teachers use them to gradually introduce scales, modes, etc... learn the notes in a particular key over a span of five frets, then move up five frets, etc...

and the boxes are moveable too (which initially looks appealing), unfortunately this often leads to people making awkward shifts from one box to the next, or (even worse) staying in the box

in my eyes there's no substitute for learning every note on the neck, knowing which notes you want to play, and knowing where every single one of them is

I think I agree with your method. The only mode I ever properly learned was Phrygian, and I tend to get stuck in that box a lot...I start there, I end there, and I revert back to it if I don't pay attention to what I'm doing. I don't think I'll bother learning the rest of the patterns, from here on in, it's individual notes for me! :P




:edit:


Ooh, my thread has been pinned. I feel special. -_-

I get you on this and I agree, I suppose at the end of the day it is really about understanding how you can translate what you hear in your head into actual music. I think a lot of books don't focus on how the mode sounds over its root.

That is why your pitch axis exercise is a really good one to do.

This is a big one I agree with totally. Because I am classically trained on the clarinet I am more at home with knowing the notes rather than sticking to the boxes. This makes improvisation a lot easier. Well for me it does anyway. :D

Yay, someone who seems as confused about all this theory as me. Although you still have a greater knowledge of theory than myself, i'm yet to learn all the modes. Your first post nailed exactly what was confusing me! Unfortunatly I strugle to understand some of the replys due to my lack of knowledge hehe

Modes are generally used for static progressions, or a series of modal static progressions.

Play an Amaj#11 and stick to that tonal centre. The only scales or modes that will be harmonious are the ones that use 1,3,#4, 5 (i.e. Lydian).

Play an Emin - Fmaj chord progression, making your tonal centre Emin. This will work with the Phrygian mode.

...it's pretty much how you emphasise the tonic note and what you play under them that define the sound of a mode.

I disagree... modes are a tonal palette that one can look (hear?) to when desired. Each and every mode has a flavour / mood / feel / colour / whatever to itself. If one can give each mode a (for want of a better word) "label" of some kind one can instantly recall that flavour / mood / feel / colour / etc whenever one desires.

Your example of Em to F contradicts itself, IMHO. In the tonal centre of Em you have (just using major scale modes) Phrygian, Dorian and Aeolian available. However, when you switch to F it's impossible to "make your tonal centre Em". Your tonal centre is the chord (more importantly) root note you're playing over. You can't have a tonal centre of Em if you're playing over F.

That's not how modes work.

Your tonal centre becomes F. Again, sticking with major scale modes you have Ionian Lydian and Mixolydian available to you. If the chord type changes (like 7ths, extensions, whatever) then your available modes either increase or decrease as the harmony allows / dictates.

Your comment "it's pretty much how you emphasise the tonic note and what you play under them that define the sound of a mode" is very close, IMHO. It's what you are playing over that defines which mode(s) are available to play over that/those chords.

You're clearly not familiar with George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization.

Your tonal centre is the 'home' chord that your progression tends to naturally gravitate towards. There are three ways of thinking of it, and either way is correct:

1. You can think of it as a Major or Minor progression. In the case of Major it would be a III - IV - V, but this makes no sense since the 'I' chord will never resolve this progression with the usual cadence points. You could argue that the emphasis was on the III chord, in which case your tonal centre would be III (aka. the 'Phrygian' tonal centre).

2. You can think of the modes as individual entities. For instance, III would be Phrygian, moving to IV which is Lydian, moving to V which is Mixolydian. Again, this would not explain the nature of the progression in question, and since the chords are obviously diatonically related it makes sense to group them accordingly.

3. You can change your tonal centre, home chord, or tonic to the mode you are attempting to emphasise. What you get is an emulated chord progression within a mode, and not an amalgamation of unrelated modes. If they are related diatonically, then it makes perfect sense.


Again I recommend you read George Russell's book, The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization. He basically explains that any mode can be used as a tonal centre, and that the 'natural' tonal centre of the Major scale is in fact the lydian mode. Miles Davis used George's concept to write the most famous Jazz album of all time, Kind of Blue, which was quite radical for its time and used modes for each song as a tonal centre. The Lydian mode is also, interestingly enough, the only mode with a 'Tri-tone' interval from the root note.

Another fine example. Listen to Simon & Garfunkel's Scarborough Fair. You will here that there are a number of diatonic chords within the progression but the cadence point is undoubtedly V - II, with II being the 'home' chord or tonic. II is the triad of the Dorian mode, and this is what gives the song a celtic type of flavour. This is what I would describe as a 'Dorian' progression.

However, as soon as you move outside the realm of 'diatonicism', then you can begin to explore the true nature of modes, which each mode being a seperate entity unto itself. Jazz fusion very much follows this principle of viewing progressions outside the diatonic field, and using each chord as a seperate entity which in turn is linked to a related mode. Indeed, as you said earlier, when you start to add substitutions to your chords your choice of mode becomes fewer. Musicians like Satriani tend to occasionally use Jazz Fusion principles (take for instance the chorus progression in 'Time'), but for the most part they play diatonically. I would definately like to see Satriani find his way out of this diatonic rut he seems to be in at the moment. His older material was alot more unique and insteresting.

Firstly, you're absolutely right - I am not familiar with that book because my library can't get hold of it (even with inter-library loans) and I need all my body parts and hence cannot afford to pay for it. I have wanted to read it (I've seen other books based on it, but wanted the source itself) for a long time.

However each mode being a seperate entity unto itself sounds very much like my comment of Each and every mode has a flavour / mood / feel / colour / whatever to itself.

erm...this is sorta akward,but I've never been here before and I don't really know how this sight works,but I've been listening to Joe since I was in the womb(mom and dadwere
big fans)and well...I've been playing about 8 months and I try and practice like 8 hours a day(I got that idea from dad talking about Steve Vai),but anyways the point is I learn by tab and ear,and I know very little music theory even these explanations were hard for me to understand,I know Joe uses Lydian alot but I have know clue how to play it much less use it :D but I'd really appreciate any help from you guys.Sorry for being such a noob. :blink:

Here are a couple of vids with Joe talking about modes:

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWHKeC4IEgA
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoGQ9yHOyZQ&feature=related

check the section named Phry's Theory Section for an intro to theory.

then ask away in the Discussion Thread.

Thanks for stopping by! :)

oh, and btw - everyone was a noob once, and most good musicians consider themselves never-ending learners. You're in good company :)