Hey all,

This is for the theory kings out there i have a question.


Right my style of remembering the chords played in a song is with the Roman Numeral patterns im sure some of you have heard of. Also know as 1-2-3-4-5-6.

Now my question is, although there are more chord groups that just minor and major which is ideally what the roman numerals show, they do not show where a diminished/augmented/dominant would "fit" in place in a key...

Is there any way to expand the minor and major chord sequence to add the the three extra chord groups .... ?

Cos i know it as:

MmmMMmm (capital M being major, small m being minor). But thats only 2 chord types not anything, seems pretty limiting... if i could work out a way to input dominant chords (which is a huge family) then i have a massive load of options. And plus adding augment and diminished would also also unusual sounding voicings to make the songs seem odd and new.

Any suggestions on where they could fit in as such ?

btw Roman numerals are I II III IV V VI and VII. The numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 are Arabic numerals.

Major triad = root + major 3rd + perfect fifth
Minor triad = root + minor third + perfect fifth
Augmented triad = root + major third + augmented fifth
Diminished triad = root + minor third + diminished fifth

Major seventh chord = major triad + major seventh
Minor seventh chord = minor triad + minor seventh
Dominant chord = major triad + minor seventh

All of these can be found by simple harmonisation. I wouldn't call dim, aug and dominant chord types as "groups", they're just expansions of basic triads.

You're almost right in your MmmMMmm if you're talking about triadic harmonisation of a major scale:

1st degree always makes a major triad
2nd always makes a minor triad
3rd degree always makes a minor triad
4th degree always makes a major triad
5th degree always makes a major triad
6th degree always makes a minor triad
7th degree makes a diminished triad

Hope this helps! Shout again with more Qs!

How do you not get bored learning the triad groups and everything? I'm not bashing, I just don't know how you keep your focus on that kind of thing without getting incredibly bored. I've been playing for 15 years now and I am wondering if it is even worth learning all the triads in every key at this point...I mean, I know how to play all of those types of triads, but mostly in root form without the inversions (I know a few minor and major inversions, but to tell you what key they are in, I usuall yhave no clue). What is the usefulness/purpose of learning them? Is it pointless for me now to learn that stuff?

ok, what is 'perfect 5th'?

wetpants: I'd never suggest to anybody to not learn theory. Regarding its usefulness, well that's entirely up to you ;)

I personally never learned every triad in every key (too busy drinking and stuff back in those days :lol:) - I just learned how to construct them (basically my post ^^^ up there).

That way I can create any chord type in any key just by knowing what I typed ^^^ up there. Does that make sense?

I never use chord book chords or those root position things they always seem to teach people. If I want, say, the seventh chord built on the third degree of G minor I'll use the formula (cos that never changes), see which notes make up that chord, and then make my own fingering made up of those notes.

Oh, and regarding getting bored, no! With this approach I can (if I choose) never play the same chord twice, and I can change my fingerings to flow with the chord before and/or after. The possibilities are practically endless :)

motorcycle_driver: A perfect fifth is an interval seven semitones (aka half steps) above the root in question, so for A the perfect fifth is E, for G it's D, etc.

EDIT: Accidently edited the wrong post!

The circle of fifths is tied to transposition.

One could consider that the V chord of a major key is the I chord of a new key. The two keys closest (ie fewest number of note changes) are the keys built on the 4th and 5th degrees. For C they are F (the B gets flatted) and G (the F gets sharpened).

Once you've gone to the new key (from C to G in this case) you could do the same again - change key to the one starting on the fifth degree. In this example we change from G to D (the C gets sharpened).

You can repeat this through all the keys up to F# major (which has 6 sharps).

You can also do the reverse by using your current key (let's use C again) and treat the I chord as the V chord of another key. This would be (as already mentioned) F. Then do the same - treat the F chord (I in F) as the V chord of another key. This would be Bb major (the E gets flatted). Keep going in a similar way until you get to Gb major (which has 6 flats) and you'll get the entire circle of fifths.

This image shows the entire circle. You can see that F# major a Gb major use the same notes (but they're named differently) and hence see why I said to stop at F# major and Gb major.



I showed roman numerals up to seven because there are seven notes in any major scale.

An augmented chord is *not* major, although it does have a major third. The lack of a perfect fifth makes it not a major chord. It's the augmented (ie sharpened) fifth that makes it augmented.

A diminished chord similarly is not a minor chord although it does contain a minor third. It's the dimished (ie flattened) fifth that makes it dimished.

Also, please don't get confused with intervals and scale degrees (not that you have, but it often happens! This is just a warning!). Augmented fifth & diminished fifth are intervals, whereas in the circle of fifths we're talking about scale degrees.

Your harmonisation list (while I didn't check it entirely but it looks OK) contains a mixture of triads and seventh chords. It's not necessarily wrong, but it's not the "normal" way to do it. Triads don't have four notes, but your 7 chords and your m7b5 chords have four notes. All the others have three.

EDIT: spelling!

EDIT 2: It's not generally accepted (I hate to say "wrong"!) to have both sharps and flats in the same key. Your key listing should really show the harmonisation of, for example, G# and Ab completely separately. They are entirely different keys (even if they use the same physical notes)

So if these aint a minor or a major where on earth do they fit in to a key....?

Major Scale Hamonisation

I Major
ii minor
iii minor
IV Major
V Major
vi minor
vii diminished

Harmonic Minor Scale Harmonisation

i minor
ii diminished
III Augmented
iv minor
V Major
VI Major
vii diminished

Argh ok so where does the dominant come in ? And also... is my MmmMMmm for the church modes only ?

The Dominant chord is the a V chord with 4 notes ie: 7th. So in C major the 5th chord is a G7. good one to know as there are several major7th chords and minor 7th chords in the harmonised scale but only one dominant 7th so if you see a dominant chord you know it is the 5th of the major key.

Oh right so i have included the dominants in the Major Keys already :D

please don't even get on modes in this conversation. your head might explode. seriously.

actually, i can't imagine anybody's head exploding not being serious :lol:

but seriously (argh!!!) we're currently talking about harmonising, modes are related, definitely, but let's maybe do that in another thread ;)

to answer your question, MmmMMm*dim* is for major scales (=Ionian mode) only

after i read ur first 2 posts Phry, i almost felt like it WAS gonna explode!!! :D

:lol:

Arent modes basically the same as the Major or "MmmMMm*dim*" but in diffrent orders or sequence...

Modes are scales. When harmonised, the answer to your question is "kind of". Check the Theory Thread. Modes are mentioned in the latest post.

Yer i know the modes and the rule of how they work. But but but, there things i dont understand that I dont know how to ask you get me ? Like have you ever played a song.. and by the "rule" of modes... a certain note should not be played .... because its not in key but an artist uses it in the song and it some how fits.... ?

You're close, but not quite right in your question. Modal theory (not talking about pitch axis here, btw) allows more possible notes, not fewer.

This is covered on the latest Theory Thread post, but I'll give an example here.

Let's say you want to write a melody / solo / whatever over an A minor chord. Your first thoughts might lead you to playing in A minor over it (certainly makes sense). Yes, you could say that C Major and A minor are the same, but they're not. Yes. They do contain the same notes. But I digress. They're not the same. So there nyah nyah nyah :P

OK back to the point. If you did decide to play in A minor / C Major you are treating the A minor chord that you're playing over as either the 1st chord in A minor or the 6th chord in C Major.

Point is, the notes you have available to play are

A B C D E F G - this is A Aeolian

But there are other keys in which there is a A minor chord. One is F Major. In this case the A minor chord is being treated as the 3rd chord.

The notes you now have are

A Bb C D E F G - this is A Phrygian

Another key where there's a A minor chord is G Major. Here you're treating the chord as the 2nd chord.

The notes you have in this case are

A B C D E F# G - this is A Dorian

Obviously if there's a G Major chord somewhere in your track you'll probably not want to use A Phrygian (because G major has a natural B and A Phrygian has a B flat), but the point is you can, if you like. It's your music after all.

You can use modal theory in this way to create temporary key changes by treating the chord(s) you're playing over as something different than the function(s) they perform elsewhere in the same piece of music.

Does that make sense?

Yes and according to my notes the Am can be used in the following keys....

C/F/G/Bb.

Bb i say because it has a Am7b5(7th position chord) which i should my key charts earlier back. Which is still based around an Am would this be correct?

It would still work though would it not? Cos cant you change the bflat to a natural B making it a strange phrygian but would still sound nice over the top of G major. then go back to the bflat when its an Am ?


That is a prime example of me experimenting ^ weather it works is a mystery :P

no, that wouldn't work. Yes the start of the chord name says "Am7" but the important part is the "b5". That means the fifth is flattened and so is Eb and not E natural. There's no Eb in an Am chord.

Try to remember, in any harmonised major scale there are three minor chords. That means for every minor chord there are three keys it can appear in.

Oh, and "7th position chord" - puh-too-ee! That's a spitting sound! Positions my arse! Any chord can be played anywhere as long as the notes are there ;) Don't get yourself limited by positions and box patterns and all that text book crap!

OK rant over ;)

You're not "changing" anything. You're seeing what notes are available to you for the given chord. Like I said, of course you can spend a little time in A Phrygian if you like the sound of it, but if the rest of the track is well and truly living in A Dorian or A Aeolian then that Bb you just threw in there might not sound as congruent. It's still "allowed", but it just might sound like arse.

I always recommend trying everything and making up your own mind.

LMAO i clicked edit on the wrong post :(

So now i just quoted it cos i aint re-typing it all.

why not pin this thread? seems like it has a lot of clear info(the least we can expect from you :P) in here!

Ok confused out of my face here!!?

"But there are other keys in which there is a A minor chord. One is F Major. In this case the A minor chord is being treated as the 3rd chord.

The notes you now have are

A Bb C D E F G - this is A Phrygian"





Referring to this part ^

How is the Aminor being treated as the third chord in the A phrygian ? Because the 3rd chord (thinking of chord scales)... would be a "C".

In the key of F i have here:

F Gm Am Bb C7(dominant) Dm Em7b5.


Now the only thing that really links is the Bb to the phrygian... and obviously the F. But say the backing track was all the minor chords in F.

Gm Am Dm Em7b5

Now would you play F minor ^ ? Or would you play the relative minor scale in the key of F ? which is Dm. Cos there is Dm in the chord sequence as shown. But because they are all minor chords couldn't it still fit with an F minor. Which relative major of F minor is G# Major. Which we know there is no G# major in the key of F only a Gm which is the 2nd chord in the key.

Which means........













I think i have answered my own question here.. which the answer is you cant play F minor only D minor...when playing only the minors in the key of F? :huh:

LMAO.

A Phrygian A Bb C D E F G

uses the same notes as

F Major F G A Bb C D E

When you harmonise F Major the third chord is Am

You're combining triads and seventh chords again.

It should either be

F Gm Am Bb C Dm Edim

or

Fmaj7 Gm7 Am7 Bbmaj7 C7 Em7 Em7b5

I don't get you on this bit?

If the chords all come from F major (and you say they do) then play F Major over them all. It can't not fit because all those chords came from it.

Best to not even think of minor keys here, because you started with F Major. Stick with that.

btw the relative major of F minor is Ab Major.