I used to be of the impression that joe was as good as it gets when it comes to techniuqe, but since iv got back into teh guitar iv seen loads of guys do things that i very much doubt joe could pull off. However, joe still has some crazy tricks of his own up his sleeves like the backwards tapping thing he does on cool number 9 and mystical potato head grove thing and the two handed chord tapping.

You may think iv been a bit hard on joe with my comments on other threads but really im not, i would really have liked to see him live up to his full potential that he shows glimpses of at times, instead of always relying on the same old legatto and blues licks.

Where do you think joe stands on a technical standpoint, is he still one of the best, can he hold his own?

One thing that i really dont like is his pick tapping, i got the first g3 on dvd years ago an i felt almost embaressed for him when he started doing that during the jam with eric johnson and steve vai, with the amount of skills he has i really dont know why he persists with the pick tapping it looks and sounds ugly.

Well below this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yPEewaalik

When I saw Satriani for the first time, opening for Deep Purple on the ITLIS tour, he absolutely ripped it up for the whole show, and dropped a lot of jaws with his incredible playing...You really need to see him live to appreciate him...That said, I think Guthrie Govan is one today's most technically well-rounded guitarists I've seen....but...I still much prefer Satriani for his melodic playing and tone, regardless of his technique? Do we need to rank our guitar heroes like those silly articles in magazines like Guitar World? I've seen guys rip it up in guitar stores with lots more speed and technical ability than Satch, but who cares? How many albums have they sold? How many thousands upon thousands of people have they played for? Satriani is where he is for a reason, and not just based upon his technical ability. I think his pick tapping is great IMO, and he certainly can hold his own....Is he the best? No...Does it matter? No. Is he still one of the best guitarists who has ever lived, who continues to inspire millions the world over to play guitar, and to want to play the guitar well? YES

that is literaly the best guitarist i have ever seen/heard...he's like micheal ange
lo batio only...good

iv seen satch and vai live btw twice for satch, and they are not as good as that guy, nowhere near. DAMN!

Hahaha, that's funny....MAB is the Kenny G of the guitar world...No matter how fast he plays or how many crazy double necked techniques he uses, the musical value of his music is next to nothing. If you want to see some more amazing guitarists, check out these guys!:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VAkOhXIsI0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh_24DXNy8E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbndgwfG22k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv5Cvb8jGFI

Well, I have to point something out.

Joe said it, I am sure it can be easily found as a quote and that is just THE quote. It is all about that technique stuff. He said it, that what he really wants is that the fans see beyond his technical ability which he uses just for expressing himself, so that they could hear the music.
It has never been about technique, it is all about the music behind it.
If you are bored by him, then why bother even registering at a forum about him? Obviously there is something that keeps you, that brought you here.

To me, his improvisatinos are all the same and I have not seen a player that can go every night and do something new. It is just that we are Joe freaks, have gigabytes of bootlegs and stuff. Back in the day there were no such opportunities. To be honest I would love to hear Always live. I think the idea is the same as with the improvisation.

This is all about music, not about 'how fast can I play'. Whatever he does, when it gets down to recording, there are some awesome ideas. In the last album there are some solos that take my head away and sound just incredible (e.g. Rev.). and that is after 30 years of playing!!! Few can do that.

About the guys that you have been discussing, everybody who does not have a job or drops out of school can do the whole day sweeps and arpeggios. You also can play in 250bpm and not hear any note. If that is what fascinates you.
I know the person that had (I do not know if he still has it) the record in most notes played in a second (40n), (in Guinnes). It is just not about that :)

Last I would like to quote Joe once more
'Like those Bob Marley songs. You see three chords and it is so easy yet so powerful'

I think that quote says it all :)

It all comes down to this ...
every player has his approach, their own world.
And quess what, it all comes from the same basics...
The same goes for the styles you are interested in.

ps: nice quote Fenix. Joe uses another one recently : the ones that don't understand Joe's music, don't understand its 'musterion' ;)

Joe himself has always maintained that he is not a shredder. He's been lumped in with all the others due to the nature of being an instrumental guitar player.

I simply refuse to believe anybody who says joes shredding skills arent at the very least ONE of the main reasons they started checking for him.

Going to have to refuse me then, i got into Joe, at least 4 years before I ever saw a video of him, or ever own/played a guitar for myself.

I didn't even know the term shred, and never really heard many songs by Joe to make me think he was guitar god at the time. I was mostly hooked on Flying In Blue Dream. at the time it didn't really make me think he was any better technically than the greats like Hendrix, but that was my ignorance at the time, as I did not even realise people could play like Joe at the time.

But the long held feedback notes on the song gripped me so much, it just has a sweet soothing sound that I had the track on repeat until eventually youtube came along and my knowledge of computers improved I eventually found alot of songs and info about Joe in the cyber world... and ended up on this site about 2 years ago.


I been a fan since about 2002.

i know all of joes songs are pretty good and pretty hard to play but do you think he has anything that can be compared to the top guys on a technical level? if so could you please give me the youtube link?

The most technical thing Joe does is the MPHGT trick, the rest is just legato of which isn't mind boggling to do after roughly 5 to 6 years of playing if you really give it a good go.

He is miles behind on a technical level when compared to Vai/Petrucci.

But Petrucci's solo album wasn't exactly music for the masses, its mostly for guitarists only, and with Vai's not even some guitarists can really get a feel for his wierd ideas.

Joe on other hand, you don't need to be a guitarist to love his music and enjoy it, that his technical skill, being able to write music like that, and that is infact the hardest to do, and some say you can't learn to do it, your born with that skill, but who knows.

I think we should stop with all these comparison non sense, its silly and it doesnt take great deal to just hear how comparing them is like apples/bannanas

he makes albums loke a zeppelin ,memorable songs with guitars in the right places.it sounds more like a complete idea. thats a lot of complete albums for not having a songwrter like a rock band...

what is it petrucci and vai do taht put them miles above satriani, tehy do seem a little better but it seems when satch pushes himself he can do all the stuff they do to, i thought he was at least snapoping at their heels technically if not as good

the mystical potato head grove thing is incredibly fuckin hard to play

Hold on, here... Joe's not as technically good as his contemporaries? Perhaps I don't understand the terms of this discussion... There are a lot of different ways that people use the word "technique," after all. Technique is really another word for "method" or "approach" or, perhaps "expression". In these is Joe not undeniably a master?

People want to argue that technique is simply a measure of speed picking specific licks at the fastest metronome speeds... I listened to several of the videos by Guthrie Govan, and I started to get really bored waiting for him to finish... I just wanted him to "get to the good part" and show off his skillz... Which he indeed has, I certainly can't deny, but is he really that much faster than someone like Frank Gambale or Al DiMeola? There's plenty of youtube "fastest guitarist" videos out there, and they are undeniably cool to watch. But they are ultimately unsatisfying if it's just the same tricks repeated a little faster... Sweeps... check. Taps... check. Moving up and down the modes... check. blah.

Joe goes from breakneck picking to sublime bends in a heartbeat. He uses doublestops at will. When you close your eyes and listen to him, it is an ultimately rewarding experience both musically and technically. Check out the live version of Circles on Time Machine to hear insane picking, elegant phrasing and unbeatable timing in just the intro! The song itself has a solo that spins my head even after uncountable listens... And then he drops back into one of the coolest riffs I've ever heard like it didn't even happen. Joe is not just good at music or at music theory or at legato picking or tapping or any kind of technique. He's good at damn near everything!

I second that, nine.jack.nine.

Awesome links, Satch-Mo! Check out Michael Kelsey if you enjoy those first three...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIRQj8PR5rQ

ps MAB rots! :) :)

To start with if you see Petrucci in Dream Theater.. the case is closed on that full stop. It is clear as day petrucci is technically much more tight with his playing and far more complex using time signatures way out there keys, and even his solos are so out there some times but he still nails it 100% note for note the same as the album when playing live, which shows he's not just playing any thing hes structured it. Obviously he improvises as well but his accuracy is very good. Same for Vai.

The music how ever is not easy listening to the majority. But Joe just doesn't do half the techniques Vai and Petrucci does, he even has said he doesn't enjoy sweeping all that much because he just isn't great at it, sure he can do it but he's no match for Vai or Petrucci with sweeping but its irrelevant to me. He does plectrum tap often how ever but thats not too difficult to do I don't think.

I don't find Joe's songs overly complex to play, except there is the odd one which is so improvised it is difficult to get a feel for "If I Could Fly" or "Searching" are prime examples where the technical level is much higher than the normal.

How ever, I can only just about play half of one of Petrucci's very short solos which is the solo to Under A Glass Moon:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bVmq2C5kLoM

This video just shows his technical level, he does two hand taps alternate picking and legato, sweeps the whole works in a short solo like that! Don't get me started in the "Beyond This Life" solo live at the Boduken or the Bombay Vindaloo performance!

Beyond this life solo:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=WlNSnAlFGkQ
Tell me if you see any mistakes ^ I don't see any....2 mins onwards is the solo main part

And I can't even begin with Vai's music yet it's too hard! Although I am not a fan of his music in the slightest.

Joe on the other had is more fluid/relaxed and more "fun" in his playing, because he uses the blues roots alot! Vai uses the frank zappa out of the box type of sound, and petrucci is in the metal/progressive rock world thats how my ears hear it, and Joe's music brushes off nicely to people's ears even if you are not a guitarist/musician more than the other guys.

Vai and Petrucci would never come up with a song like "Ceremony" they just lack the fluid feeling in their playing. This is why Joe is so great to me.

Go try and learn this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-ozkfFav2Rk


And then try:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MjNAeELQ_Z8

.. im sure you will see which one you find far more difficult to do. I already know the answer as I have attempted both :P

But technically better doesn't equal and better guitarist or a better musician. Otherwise, Hendrix is technically aboslutely shite. But he is the greatest of all. Because there are many teenagers more technical on guitar than Hendrix was but they just lack that extra something which you don't learn, your born with it.



Joe uses simple backing chords voicings are lush but still simple, hes not got like 12 chord changes and key changes in majority of his music, Musterion has 3 key changes ok thats alot for Joe's normal approach but almost nothing compared to Dream Theater lol And back in Joe's more technical times Not Of This Earth had alot of key changes but Joe doesn't go that technical because its not as easy to listen to and enjoy by the ears, only enjoy by the eyes if your watching him play it.

If Joe was overly technical the songs he writes which I think are the best instrumental songs going! Would loose its music enjoyment factor, and would become more a guitarist guitarist type of song. Like Searching is probably mostly liked by the fans of Joe who play guitar because its just pure guitar improvisation rather than a written out song.

Thats how I see it, I am sure many will disagree with me but I think I have put some fair points into my view.

I should also add two things:
Even though I think Vai and Petrucci are technically better on a guitar, but worse musically than Joe, I believe there is many more "technical" guitarists out there that are better than Vai and Petrucci, but few are musically better than Joe....still!!!

I'd love to see Vai or Petrucci try making their own song like this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ddn4MGaS3N4

But I doubt they could do it all that well....

And would also like to add, even though I say I find joe's songs easy to play, compared to Vai and Petrucci, doesn't mean I can play Joes songs as good as Joe or any where near his level obviously :P

Joe is still my favourite because I like the music not the guitar skills. Hope you see where I am coming from.

Nine said it much better than I ever could.
Agree to the 100%

I believe that the whole discussion is a little bit pointless. At least for me, as it has always been about the music and the beauty of it.

I have this one video, thatI always refer to at such discussions. G3 Live in Denver. Little Wing. When the solos starts. Malmsteen plays, Vai plays, and Joe's guitar just... sings. For me, when he comes in. You just travel somewhere else.
both others go into tapping, sweeping, stuff. And he just comes in with a bend... and what a powerfull one. And no, it is not sophisticated. But that just does not matter.

To me it is all about the music.

That sums up my hugely long post for me :P As that is also how I hear it.

His Solo rocks, yes.

But yet, Vai's one really stunned me in the first seconds, it's marvelous too.


I think I once read an interview with Joe talking about the MPHGT arpeggio and him practicing it before shows.. he also mentioned that he showed it to Vai and he played it with ease.
I still have to admit that even though i love Vai and his playing, I can't listen to him as long as to Joe. Sometimes, music gets too complicated.

I checked your pertrucci vids and some others and i am honestly not that impressed...i mean, its amazing but i dont see where he is technically better than joe, he just does the same stuff taht joe does in is solo's only more of it and its a lot more random, doesnt sit that nicely for me

Vai on the other hand is incredible, but the only place i see him outshineing joe is teh whammy abuse and ist obvious with joes on whammy skills that he vould do that if he wanted

funnily enough i like vai a lot and have seen hima couple of times, but i remmeber the first time i seen him there was this crazy slide guitarist with him that was so good and so entertaining that when steve came out and played, it just seemed like a load of tinny little notes

still, for the love of god is still by far the best guitar instrumental ever...by far the best

I think you are referring to Eric Sardinas.

http://www.favorednations.com/artists/es/es.html

Watch the Rock Discipline instructional video by Petrucci and you will see that he has a LOT more technical ability than Joe. To say that Petrucci and Vai are not technically superior to Satch is well...just not true... Now, having said that, I much prefer Satriani's melodic playing and his more effective use of technique to achieve musical results.

I don't care about technical level, I'm just looking for someone that makes a guitar 'talk'...
For me Joe is one of them. And for everyone it is different..

I know its all about the feel and everything, but I am just laying out the facts relating to his question...Maybe for you and I his music means different things, but if he chooses to care about technique, so what? Its his perogative, and if he chooses a different way of appreciating Joe's music, so be it. There's no need to re-iterate again and again that "It's all about the the feel, man!!"

No one cares about technical level except the person who made the thread. Its a tedious argeument which is never ending.

I'm sure we have all read the utter non sense of you tube comments by low educated idiots who go "not as good as such n such".... its like who the hell cares. about technical in the long term.

Im with the Riddler here, Joe makes the guitar sing.... therefore Joe wins.

Joe doesn't act like he's the best guitarist on the planet. He doesn't claim to be. He's just a great songwriter and he really speaks to the audience.

In the end it's all about personal tastes. People seem to ignore the fact that music is made for your ears. It's not about technique and who's best or fastest. Those who put technical skills as the primary factor for defining who is the best are simply trying to adhere to an elitist point of view because it's a lot easier to measure speed and technique to compare musicians than their overall style and feel. It's impossible to quantify feel, it's a matter of personal taste. However it's so easy to argue about technique.

Music is meant to be enjoyed as something that is pleasant to the ears.You should be able to relax and enjoy without having to think. If the only thing you do while listening is think about is how technical the guy is and how awesome his technique is... well you're not listening to music. You're drooling over a show of technique and speed.

Technique is important as a foundation for playing the instrument. If you can't play things that warm people inside despite being very technical... it is completely useless. It won't impress anyone other than wannabes.

Music is about the feel, it's not about speed and turning it into a contest of "I play faster than you hence I am better". Technique doesn't get you laid and won't make you any better in life :P I don't play to impress I play to enjoy it. Though a lot play to impress and not for themselves and technique is far easier to achieve than good feel... music shouldn't be something to impress others and show just how good you are. It should be there to make others enjoy it.

Joe might not have as much speed or technique as others but nobody can claim such a thing... Nobody has a clue. The only way to measure that up would be to pit them all against the same stuff to test their skills... In the end, Joe is enjoyable to listen to without thinking about how fast he plays. It's a pure fun experience.

But people still try to argue and compare his technique with others when the only thing that matters in the end is the melody. To top it all off those who regard technique as the ultimate show of skills will talk crap about Michael Angelo Batio saying he has no feel...

So what ? Technique is the most important thing but if it's all technical it's not good enough it needs feel ? it's quite hypocritical :P

I love Batio. This guy has insane technique but a lot of his songs also have insane feel to them even if the extra shred could sometimes be done without. I don't like Paul Gilbert much because I'm not impressed by the speed. Some of his songs are great though. Again it's about personal taste :P

Why do people do not want to realize this, it is so simple:

There is no best. That is not sports. It is not about winning a final, it is just about being there.

I am done :)

Yeah that's about the whole picture there :lol:

You know a good guitarist is not necessary a great technician!

if you look to Angelo batio he play very fast and technical parts but after several listening it become boring!

Satch don't need to play fast and technique to be funny and interesting to listen!

PS: i don't like govan it is technical but so jazzy boring!

I Confess, after only a few days listening to Govan I'm pretty bored with him.

As for Petrucci, of course he is a great technical player but i dont see nothing that blows my mind the way vai does....Johns doing some great shredding but he's only really doing the same thing satch does only more of it, nuthing new or groundbreaking, i think i could play a lot of his stuff with enough time, I'm really good with my right hand, but cool number 9, mystical potato head grove thing, and crushing day just seem beyond my limit, i can try and play them and i can play a lot of it nicely, or i could when i practiced more anyway, but the arpeggios drive me nuts.

Gilbert is just like a poor version of vai, without all the harmonic squeals and advanced modal changes.

The way i see it is, as far as electric/rock players anyway....

Vai at his best is undoubtedly the best, and has the highlights of any player ever on the guitar, but he has a lot of moments where you feel like punching him.

Satch is the most consistent but never really reaches the heights vai gets too emotionally, but is still probably the best because he has so many great songs, i feel if satch had to really let himself go he would be the undisputed king of the guitar

Petrucci is basically just another shredder who has some nice melodic moments but who trys to hard to be overly complex at times, undoubtedly a talented player but not really in the realms of satch or vai when it comes to instrumental music IMO.

Gilbert is an ultra practiced shredder but is extremely boring to me.

Malmsteen is just a gimp as far as im concerned, he has obviously spent a great deal of his life practicing those sweeps but they are extremely boring to me, and he has no feel for a song whatsoever, if he played wth more style then let rip with some of that stuff in teh way vai does, only with his own touch, he could be good, but as is he is just an out of date Micheal Angelo Batio

And as for Micheal Angelo Batio, and Cooley and all them, i admire there will to practise and get fast and i think it is a fair acheivment in its own right but as musicians i dont rate them.

Oh yea, and as for all the people coming in with all the, its all about the melody man shit, please shut up.

Sure thats a massive part of it, but when you reach certain heights of technique it can help you achieve those musical goals, I'm not saying somebody has to have a full song of straight shredding to show they are technically advanced. I'm just asking where yous think Joe ranks when it comes to out and out skills, after a couple of weeks rewatching all his stuff on youtube and listening to his CD's i would actually rate him pretty highly again, like i said he doesn't shred as much as Petrucci but IMO he is every bit as good at it when he choses to be.

For example i was showing my young cousin some guitarists yesterday who doesn't play. First of i put on Batio's and he was like fuck, but when i put on satriani he nodded along and when it got to the solo he said, i think he is just as fast, maybe faster.

He thought this because Joe was probably playing more notes per second as he was playing right down the bottom, i think it was ceremony. Me as a guitarist myself knew what Batio was playing was a lot harder but it just goes to show you hes not quite as fast as people think, i think Cooley is considerably faster, but at the end of the day they are both very unfulfilling to listen to because they over do it. I'm pretty sure if Satch wanted to play that way or the way of petrucci or whatever it would certainly be within his means, would probably take him a week of practicing then he could do it maybe not as out of this world lighting fast as Cooley but only milliseconds off. Vai i feel could probably do it already as he taking his shredding seriously.

His chord tapping is great no doubt, with day at the beach being a particular highlight, but what about Satriani's in song tapping? Do you like his plectrum tap? personally i hate it, it sounds rubbish to me and it is so easy to do it just annoys me, does he ever do any finger tapping in any of his songs/solos? i just think that it sounds so much better. As iv stated elsewhere iv just got back into the guitar after a 6 year layoff so i cant really remember if Satch did this at any point....shit i just remembered he does, satch Boogie and Always with me...lol..any other examples?

Anyway what do you think of Satchs tapping overall?

Didn't we already conclude that there is no best, which was the point of mine and many other posts already made here :P

Why is this topic still going, its purely subjective opinion... and never ending. And there are no facts. For all we know Joe is the most technical player in the world but keeps it to himself in his house, but on stage drops the show off crap and just sings with his guitar..

Im sure theres more to all the guitarists we see on stage when they are in their homes and probably would surprise us how good they actually are.

Ok, this topic is closed.